Wednesday, February 12, 2014

Oh, It Got Even Worse

What happened after last nights post (note the time stamps, I haven't sorted them chronologically but as they appear in nested form):

kogwonton  Anthony_McCarthy • 10 hours ago
Morality is not based upon some law or Divine decree. It is based either upon genuine concern, or it is nothing at all. Even the type of concern isn't necessarily relevant, since your actions are either based upon what you love or what you hate. Your morality will dictate your treatment of both. Rules and laws are external imposition of ethics, while morality is the expression of internally held values. You are right. Atheism is just as incapable of producing morality as theism. If you don't care, then you will express your moral position as such.

I'd be interested to see this exchange on your blog, unedited to spin your position in a better light.

Anthony_McCarthy  kogwonton • 2 hours ago
Yes, it is based in God's words and acts. That is the conclusion of human experience, the only oracle we have in regard to anything. All you can come up with is to pretend that morality depends on whatever the majority opinion in a society thinks it is, which could easily excuse any genocide, any enslavement, any gender, ethnic or class oppression so long as it is approved of the majority and that until they change their minds that any member of those groups that complain about being deprived of their rights, they are deluded idiots because those rights don't exist until the majority creates them. And, so long as that majority is benefited by the non-existence of those rights, that they have no moral obligation to "create" them to their loss. Your position is no better than the moral framing of slave masters and the most depraved societies in our history.

I am not impressed with people who preen in their superior sciencyness as they promote that kind of amorality, especially when they are trying to dominate the left, turning it into just another branch of the far right,.

kogwonton  Anthony_McCarthy • 12 hours ago
Yes, you have no moral imperative to help anyone if you don't care. If you claim to care, then you have that moral imperative, just as I would bear the burden of proof for any assertion I would make. Ethics is logic, which is math. Martin Luther King had a moral imperative which he based both in religious doctrine and upon the values expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. constitution. IF it says that 'all men' (and ultimately women) are created equal, and IF it can be proven that black people are human, THEN they must be extended equality before the law. How many religious people refused to accept this very simple math, and opposed MLK? They certainly felt no moral imperative to come to the defense of those who suffered terrorism by society, and oppression from the law? Did God come down and force them? No... PEOPLE forced them.

Anthony_McCarthy  kogwonton • 11 hours ago
I think you got lost on your way to the Ayn Rand Fan Boys site.
I'm a leftist, I don't buy your libertarian horse shit.

kogwonton  Anthony_McCarthy • 11 hours ago
Now I KNOW you're full of shit. If you think of me as part of Ayn's fan club it only shows that you truly have no idea of whom you are talking to. I fail to see how this last post even resembles an argument. It looks more like an infantile tantrum.

Anthony_McCarthy  kogwonton • 11 hours ago
Oh, to whom am I talking to? Oz the Great and Powerful?
You are a libertarian trolling what's supposed to be a leftist site, only it really isn't.

kogwonton  Anthony_McCarthy • 11 hours ago
I am an anarcho-syndicalist at heart, while I recognize that society isn't quite ready to do away with authoritarian forms of government. I do consider such to be the ultimate goal of a truly civil society - one in which people are civil and need no coercion to respect the rights of others. I could argue my position either from biblical or purely secular terms. My guess is that I'm well to the left of you. You are an authoritarian, as proven by your assertion that rights are things that God gives, rather than something that people take as a sovereign act.

Anthony_McCarthy  kogwonton • 3 hours ago
Just out of curiosity, are you based in the San Francisco area?

Anthony_McCarthy  kogwonton • 3 hours ago −

If you are an anarchist then you are politically irrelevant. Anarchism is a delusion. Whenever there is a vacuum of civil authority criminal authority steps in to fill the gap. That is the real life experience of an absence of civil authority, where that civil authority isn't democratic and ruled by exactly those moral prerequisites of the real left that we've established atheism can't provide, it is a fascistic civil authority. , Anarchism is a delusional fantasy, one which has proven quite able to be as ruthlessly violent as others. The violence that those who adopted "propaganda of the deed" including such anarchist stars as Emma Goldman were openly prepared to use rather ruthless violence to pursue their pipe dream and when they did the only political result was damage to the real left, the left that had any chance of making real political change.

The real result of your atheist-political ideology has been the enablement of the far right. Pretending it will ever have any other result is romantic fantasy.

NOTE:  I should be able to type two-handed after tomorrow, though it's clear I'm not going to regain full use of my arm, at least not for a while.  I hope to minimize these kinds of posts for more formally written posts.

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