I will, in what follows, try to maintain the position that there is nothing wrong with viewing man as an information processor (or indeed as anything else) nor with attempting to understand him from that perspective, providing, however that we never act as though any single perspective can comprehend the whole man. Seeing man as an information-processing system does not in itself dehumanize him, and may very well contribute to his humanity in that it may lead him to a deeper understanding of one specific aspect of his human nature. It could, for example, be enormously important for man's understanding his spirituality to know the limits of the explanatory power of an information - processing theory of man,. In order for us to know those limits, the theory would, of course, have to be worked out in considerable detail.
Before we discuss what an information -processing theory of man might look like, I must say more about theories and especially about their relations to models. A theory is first of all a text, hence a concatenation of the symbols of some alphabet. But it is a symbolic construction in a deeper sense as well the very therms that a theory employs are symbols which, to paraphrase Abraham Kaplan, grope for their denotation in the real world or else cease to be symbolic...
I am going to break in here and call your attention to the remark of Stephen Hawking I pointed out the other day in which he called for excusing his branch of physics from the most basic requirements of physics, for it to be exempted from exactly this search for the "denotation," that is demonstrating correspondence of his symbols, to an actual entity represented in the real world, the physical world, the world that science has as its only legitimate subject matter. He even called for his "universes" to be exempted from logic, the means by which such denotation could be found. The extremely bizarre call for physics to be exempted from its only legitimate subject matter was done, not only with the tacit acceptance by the materialist-naturalist-physicalist - you can safely read "atheists" - who took his book to its bosom, but, in the case of the physicists or scientists among them, without objection to him also demanding an exemption from what is supposed to be, according to them, the entire and only real reality AS PROVED BY THE METHODS AND PROCEDURES OF SCIENCE . Demanding that one perspective, the one in which they obtain their fame and living, can comprehend the whole of an entity far larger than the one Weizenbaum addresses in this passage, the real UNIVERSAL set, in which people, in the materialist sense, as physical objects, are merely elements. As of now, I'm unaware of a formal demand from elite physicists from an exemption of that sort, at least not one which is articulated as such.
For Sean Carroll and the others, it has to be asked how they can maintain that religious people, the ones who make no fundamentalist pretenses to the subject of their belief being knowledge in the sense of scientific knowledge, are illegitimate in holding the supernatural, defined as non-material, non-physical, not held to be subject to the limitations of the physical universe, is real when they accept the call to do the same thing for their beliefs about physical reality, releasing their beliefs about the physical universe from the properties of the physical universe? It should be asked how long physics and cosmology, which has been taken on a quest to kill off God by atheism, can hope to maintain the reason for their repute and renown with that kind of stuff being said by the most famous among them.
Continuing:
... The words "grope for" are Kaplan's, and are a happy choice - for to say that terms of symbols "find" their denotation in the real world would deny, or at least obscure, the fact that the symbolic terms of a theory can never be finally grounded in reality.
Breaking in again, perhaps it is the frustration of looking for entities, "other universes" etc. and failing to find evidence that they are at all grounded in reality that leads Hawking to seek the exemption for his branch of "science" from the most basic requirement that it be about physical reality and held together by a logically coherent case that what he imagines has some correspondence to physical reality. That attempt NOT being seen as an enormous scandal within physics, especially in its openly materialist faction, is, frankly, disgustingly hypocritical. The demand would seem to attempt to bypass the sad fact that their theory can never be grounded in reality, moving to a place in which its preeminence is derived, exactly, from its being exempt from having ANY ground in reality.
Again:
Definitions that define words in terms of other words leave those other words to be defined. In science generally, symbols are often defined in terms of operations. In physics, for example, mass is, informally speaking, that property of an object which determines its motion during collision with other objects. (If two objects moving at identical velocities come to rest when brought into head-on collision, it is said that they have the same mass) This definition of mass permits us to design experiments involving certain operations whose outcomes "measure" the mass of objects. Momentum is defined as the product of the mass of an object and its velocity (mv), acceleration as the rate of change of velocity with time (a = dv/dt), and finally force as the product of mass and acceleration (f = ma). In a way it is wrong to say that force is "defined" by the equation f = ma. A more suitable definition given in some physics texts is that force is an influence capable of producing a change in the motion of a body. The difference between the two senses of "definition" alluded to here illustrates that so-called operational definitions of a theory's terms provide a basis for the design of experiments and the discovery of general laws, but that these laws may then serve as implicit definitions of the terms occurring in them. These and still other problematic aspects of definition imply that all theoretic terms, hence all theories, must always be characterized by a certain openness. No term of a theory can ever be fully and finally understood. Indeed, to once more paraphrase Kaplan, it may not be possible to fix the content of a single concept or term in a sufficiently rich theory (about, say, human cognition) without assessing the truth of the whole theory. This fact is of the greatest importance for any assessment of the whole theory. This fact is of the greatest importance for any assessment of computer models of complex phenomena.
A theory is, of course, not merely any grammatically correct text that uses a set of terms somehow symbolically related to reality. It is a systematic aggregate of statements of laws. Its content, its very value as theory, lies at least as much in the structure of the interconnections that relate its laws to one another, as in the laws themselves. (Students sometimes prepare themselves for examinations in physics by memorizing lists of equations. They may well pass their examinations with the aid of such feats of memory, but it can hardly be said that they know physics, that, in other words, they command a theory.) A theory, at least a good one, is thus not merely a kind of data bank in which one can "look up" what would happen under such and sch conditions. It is rather more like a map (an analogy Kaplan also makes) of a partially explored territory. Its function is often heuristic, that is, to guide the explorer in further discovery. The way theories make a difference in the world is thus not that they answer questions, but that they guide and stimulate intelligent search. And (again) there is no single "correct" map of a territory. An aerial photograph of an area serves a different heuristic function, say. for a land use planner, than does a demographic map of the same area. One use of a theory, then, is that it prepares the conceptual categories within which the theoretician and the practitioner will ask his questions and design his experiments.
Perhaps I should apologize for using this passage to profile my enormous problem with what Hawking said and its embrace by Sean Carroll and others, clearly motivated at least as much from their hatred of religion as for any scientific purpose. But what Weizenbaum pointed out about the relationship of science to the physical universe it was invented to study, in terms of theory "groping for" its denotation, perhaps finds its most stunning illustration in the demand for an exemption from its exigencies by today's most celebrated physicist and cosmologist.
I may well be wrong, but I re-read Hawking's statement that you linked to earlier (all the way back to your source), and what I heard was Godel's theorem of incompleteness at work.
ReplyDeleteHawking's formal system, in other words, has generated questions his system cannot answer, without appeal to another system.
It might be that to describe the universe, we have to employ different theories in different situations.
In other words, every system of explanation provides a certain set of answers, but no system provides a complete set of answers, so we just need several systems and several answers?
I'm sure that's not formally Godel's conclusion, but it sounds pretty informally related to it. Maybe as a cousin on it's mother's side, or something.....
In physics, for example, mass is, informally speaking, that property of an object which determines its motion during collision with other objects.
ReplyDeleteThis is kind of interesting, too, as I've come to the conclusion that what we know is largely measured by its limits, its boundaries. In other words, by what it bumps up against (how else do you know its boundaries?).
It has nothing to do with physics, but everything to do with epistemology.
We know things through their effects on other things. From the way our senses work (or seem to work) to even the most primitive ideas in language and reason. Reason is often, if not always, an assertion of causal relationships, in which something gets caused.
DeleteAnything in the universe that couldn't be convincingly put into a scheme of causality can escape our intellectual articulation of it. Materialists, among other things, deny the possibility of such entities, demanding that their causal system's inability to deal with them precludes their existence. Assigning a universal power of creative determinism to their ideologically impelled claims.
I'm sure the typical blog response to that would be, "word salad".
That's an interesting idea I've not considered but Hawking and the M-theory guys are asking people to believe his imaginary universes are real. It's not merely the presentation of a formal system, of the kind Weizenbaum mentioned in the passage I gave the other day. His proposal to remove the requirements of physical law and even logic from that use of them but to also consider them as part of physical reality turns all of science and the idea that logic has any relation to physical reality. To then use it to make allegedly scientific statements is several exemptions too far for anyone to allow that.
ReplyDeleteRupert Sheldrake said that when he had lunch with Martin Rees (they're apparently old friends) he asked why anyone should accept multi-universe theory as being true, there being no evidence of it. He says that Rees said something to the effect that then they can get rid of God, through the "anthropomorphic" argument countering the "fine tuning" argument. If Rees was joking, it's a joke based in reality because I think the desire to kill off God is the real, underlying basis of a lot of what is pushed into science and taught as such, abiogenesis, lots of claims around neuro and cog-sci, etc. If they can get away with making "science" with an exemption of finding the connection with physical reality, while claiming that's what they're doing, all hell has broken loose. But, since they're demanding an exemption from logical coherence as well as having a connection to physical evidence, maybe they figure that incoherence is allowed them too.
They've gone a lot farther in elevating theory over physical reality than music theory achieved in the 1950s and 1960s. At least those theoretician-composers had to produce something people would be willing to play and listen to, though at times their "elucidation" of the theoretical basis of it was far more muddled than the pieces they were "explaining". Arthur Burger's music is a pellucid joy, his theoretical writing is unreadable.
I think this kind of thing often results when theory is elevated past its useful presence in the world. Reality is real, our ideas about it often are not realistic.
That should probably read "anthropic" instead. It being Benadryl season here.
DeleteApropos of the earlier link to the Lewontin review, now I can read this line(I could only read, earlier, the letters responding to this argument):
ReplyDeleteTreatments for cancer remain today what they were before molecular biology was ever thought of: cut it out, burn it out, or poison it.
I just have to point out that, 16 years later, this is still the "state of the art" in cancer care.
I was tempted to include what he warned of, science making promises it couldn't keep. I think a lot of the skepticism about climate change science, not to mention evolution, is fueled by the frequent lapses in what is asserted and promised by scientists and their alleged representatives and what is produced. The recall of drugs, the proven falseness of safety guarantees, the subject of my second post yesterday,those could really destroy the popular acceptance of science.
DeleteScientists have to cut out overselling their abilities, their product and themselves, but I doubt they're willing to take the demotion from being god-like to being merely human. When one of the more affable scientists at E-ton reacted really badly to the observation that a disaster in genetic engineering could, very easily, prove universally fatal, his affability seemed to disappear. I like him but he apparently couldn't tolerate the questioning of his profession's practices. That went too far.
I think most of the resistance is because, in the case of climate change, science wants to take something away from us, rather than give us a cure for cancer, or a car that runs on water or banana peels, etc., etc., etc.
DeleteMostly a matter of whether an ox is being gored, IOW, and whose.
Context is all.
ReplyDeleteLewontin's remark struck me because I read the letters in response to his review last night, and the bulk of them attacked his assertions about cancer treatment in, of course, 1997.
The more things change....
I've got to get ready to teach. I'll look in later.
ReplyDeleteHaving way too much fun at the expense of your comments. My apologies.
ReplyDeleteDawkins's vulgarizations of Darwinism speak of nothing in evolution but an inexorable ascendancy of genes that are selectively superior, while the entire body of technical advance in experimental and theoretical evolutionary genetics of the last fifty years has moved in the direction of emphasizing non-selective forces in evolution.
That was 1997. I'm beginning to understand why Dawkins decided to go after God, and just how much other non-scientists defend even Dawkins' scientific work, which they probably don't really understand.
Somebody stop me!
ReplyDeleteWhat seems absurd depends on one's prejudice. Carl Sagan accepts, as I do, the duality of light, which is at the same time wave and particle, but he thinks that the consubstantiality of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost puts the mystery of the Holy Trinity "in deep trouble." Two's company, but three's a crowd.
Oh, you should read Lewontin's collection of essays, "It Ain't Necessarily So" or to listen to his wonderful lectures, many of which are available on YouTube. I'd rather listen to those than, say, Roddy McDowall's magnum opus, "The Cool Ones".
ReplyDeleteHe may be a materialist but I adore Richard Lewontin. I met him a couple of times, he's as nice a guy as you'd want to encounter.
I suspect Lewontin has read more and more widely than most others. I doubt many of today's celebrity scientists have as broad an education. And he has the sense to not talk about things about which he's not informed. Unusually, he's not either in a panic or a hissy fit about religion.
ReplyDeleteUnusually, he's not either in a panic or a hissy fit about religion.
ReplyDeleteI gathered that from the quote I posted immediately above. It's a wonderfully trenchant observation without either affirming or denying the doctrine of the Trinity. Dawkins or Sagan would feel the need to take a swipe at the idea; Lewontin, instead, notes the similarity in the willingness to accept seeming contrary things, depending on the formal system you're using it in. Light can't be both/and in common discourse, but it can be in the framework of physics. The mystery of the Trinity seems nonsensical outside the framework of Christianity, but within it, it's a central doctrine.
Again, as Pilate asked: "What is truth?"