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"I'll bet Nickleback has more people familiar with their stuff than Sondheim. "ReplyDelete
That's certainly true, but on the other hand, as bad as Nickleback is, they never wrote a song with as lame a metaphor as "Send in the Clowns."
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First, when I wrote this you were definitely NOT the Eschatot who I thought knew something about music.
If I were to use your comment in the Simpian manner, I'd claim that you said Nickleback were better composers than Sondheim and I'd elaborate and repeat that distortion for years and years. But that would be boring so I'll just point it out this once and publish it as a separate post. - Update: And Bert Bacharach isn't a composer in the sense that Stephen Sondheim is. He's a songwriter. I would say he's a good songwriter, though some of the lyrics he set, which take the Mad Men era view of women as a given are grotesquely dated now. The ideas he put in the mouths of the women who sang some of his songs are disgustingly misogynistic. The view of women he promotes is as victims whose main role of life is to be there for men who can be expected to betray them. Some of his songs that don't have that messaging are pretty good.
Sondheim is both a better composer than Bacharach and a better lyricist than Hal David. Which is probably why he's not as popular in the tissue paper music business. He writes stuff for thinking about and learning from, not a mere confirmation of attitudes learned from the worst part of American male-centered pop culture. I'm unaware of Bacharach ever attempting long-form composition. What did he write that stands up against Sweeny Todd? Sunday In The Park With George? -
"It seems to me that to organize on the basis of feeding people or righting social injustice and all that is very valuable. But to rally people around the idea of modernism, modernity, or something is simply silly. I mean, I don't know what kind of a cause that is, to be up to date. I think it ultimately leads to fashion and snobbery and I'm against it." Jack Levine: January 3, 1915 – November 8, 2010 LEVEL BILLIONAIRES OUT OF EXISTENCE
"Sondheim is both a better composer than Bacharach and a better lyricist than Hal David. Which is probably why he's not as popular in the tissue paper music business. He writes stuff for thinking about and learning from, not a mere confirmation of attitudes learned from the worst part of American male-centered pop culture. I'm unaware of Bacharach ever attempting long-form composition."
ReplyDelete1. Sparky Strawman No. 1: I said Bacharach is a better composer than Sondheim,, not a better lyricist. Please get back to me when Sondheim writes something as exquisite as "I'll Never Fall in Love Again" "Walk on By" "Trains and Boats and Planes" or "I Say a Little Prayer," to name but a few.
2. Sparky Strawman No. 2: Nobody was ever oppressed by a Bachrach-David song, including the amazing women -- Aretha, Dionne Warwick, and Dusty Springfield -- who sang them.
3. Sparky Strawman No. 3: There was a hit Broadway show by Bachrach and David called "Promises Promises." It plays better than "Pacific Overtures," I'll tell you that for free. In any case, the news of this show was in all the papers.
And by the way, Bacharach studied composition with Darius Milhaud, who's a hell of a lot cooler than Milton Babbitt.
Oh, and I certainly don't recall saying that to ql. When did I say it? Produce the quote and a link to where I said it.
ReplyDeleteIf she said I said that she's spent too much time at the Baby Blue "brain trust".
And Blogger ate my answer. I might rewrite it later. Essentially you admitted that Bacharach didn't write anything that can compare with Sweeney Todd or Sunday In The Park With George by trying to compare Bacharach's "Promises Promises" with one of Sondheim's successful but less successful pieces.
DeleteYou don't judge a composer's quality by their lesser work but by the best they could produce. No one ever bases Beethoven's place in music on the King Stephen overture.
I didn't say Bacharach was a bad songwriter, I said he was good but that lots of his stuff is seriously dated. I don't think Sweeney Todd or even "Pacific Overtures" is going to get old.
I did you the favor of not posting your bragging about your crappy garage band CDs. It was embarrassing but not for me.
BTW, Sparky -- I was responsible for the release of two really good CDs (I'm playing on them as well) this year. What did you do musically in 2016?
ReplyDeleteI would only note that one must consider the source of anyone who thinks "Send in the Clowns" is a lame metaphor.
ReplyDeleteIt's not even an argument, it's just an assertion that sounds clever. Well, until you listen to it.
Maybe I should have told Simps "it was embarrassing for someone else, but not for me" I don't think he would get the joke on that little to go by. But, then, if I'd parodied the whole song with the same rhyme scheme it would have been too much for him.
DeleteJudy Dench singing Send In The Clown is worth a trip to Youtube to hear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04E8Y8nDfRQ
I don't remember who it was written for, another actor with limited voice. It's something like hearing Audry Hepburn singing Moon River - the best version of the song ever sung. Simps will probably say something about the dated aspect of Breakfast at Tiffany's if it occurs to him. He will grasp at anything when he's losing an argument, which is why he's so good at straw grasping. Actually, no, Judy Dench is entirely more heartbreaking.
While there it's possible to look at the many versions of the song sung by most of the major singers of the time after it was written as well as many far lesser singers.
Going back to find the URL for that I noticed there's one of Sondheim teaching the song. Maybe I'll post it if it's as good as I guess it is.