tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4764506766343254616.post5768821179556083122..comments2024-03-26T14:20:38.103-04:00Comments on The Thought Criminal: Why I Hate The Caucus (non)System And Why The Saunders Campaign Was Almost Certainly A Big Loss For The Left Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4764506766343254616.post-30130393631443824622016-03-08T06:46:37.404-05:002016-03-08T06:46:37.404-05:00I don't think voting for the least bad candida...I don't think voting for the least bad candidate who has a realistic chance of winning office and actually doing something better than their opponent isn't pragmatic, it's realistic idealism. <br /><br />The Greens and independent lost any respect due to them when they decided to run spoilers in presidential elections in 2000 and 2004 and other spoilers who had no chance of winning. That has happened several times in my state, Paul LePage is the governor of Maine due to spoiler candidates of that kind. The absolute last straw was when the Greens ran a senatorial candidate in Pennsylvania with the financial backing of Republican fat cats. <br /><br />All of those candidacies have not moved things left, they have enabled Republicans in many cases and discredited the left within the Democratic party. The only way that could work is for the Greens or others to gain enough seats in the legislative branch of the federal or state governments to swing the control of the body (something which Sanders was able to do as Senator due to the crazy rules of the Senate) or to have an influence on legislation due to that power. But that only works within limits and only in some cases. <br /><br />That Greens have not been effective in building power of that kind in any state after three decades of existence proves that they are not realistic and are unwilling to make changes in their basic structure that would make that a possibility. <br /><br /><br />I went to one of the early organizing meetings of the Greens in my state, it wasn't ten minutes into the meeting that I knew it was not going to go anyplace because they insisted that all decisions had to be made on a consensus basis. Consensus doesn't work in politics, the exigencies of politics favors those who act, sometimes fixing problems with what they do later. It doesn't favor those who won't act out of some ideal which is not agreed on or is unattainable. The Greens have chosen a road of futile inaction and ineffective postures. It's no wonder that they aren't taken seriously by people who understand what they refuse to. They should have learned that in the past three decades. The Thought Criminalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01381376556757084468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4764506766343254616.post-87439358153556094442016-03-08T06:35:38.204-05:002016-03-08T06:35:38.204-05:00In American politics as they are we get the lesser...In American politics as they are we get the lesser or greater of evils, that's the ugly truth of it, it has been the ugly truth of it for the entire time the United States has been in existence. Lincoln authorized the mass lynching of Indians in Minnesota during his term in office, he did lots to enable the growth of corporations, he was a corporate lawyer before he became president. FDR did all kinds of things to try to get around the obstruction of the Supreme Court that was pretty bad, not to mention things like the internment of Japanese-Americans and his continually having to deal with Southern politicians within the party. And Truman, Kennedy and Johnson did some pretty awful things both to get to the place where they could be elected and as president. <br /><br />Those are the only real choices we have, no one in the world cares about votes cast for never-will-be-elected candidates or non-voters stand for principle, if they cared about such things then they would have had an effect on real life politics by now, those kinds of stands have been being made for well back into the 19th century. In terms of politics, they are entirely meaningless. That is also a hard truth of political life. <br /><br />I will write a longer answer to your points when I have the time. The Thought Criminalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01381376556757084468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4764506766343254616.post-14427628298572545292016-03-07T19:46:13.389-05:002016-03-07T19:46:13.389-05:00One other thing--the whole schtick of "I am t...One other thing--the whole schtick of "I am the clear thinking pragmatist and you wild-eyed lefties are stupid scum" is self-defeating if you actually want to persuade some of them to come to your side, but it works great if the idea is to express tribal superiority which is what much of political debate is really about. If pragmatists were really pragmatic, they would grant the legitimate criticisms made of the Democratic Party and treat the potential Stein voters with respect and try to win them over, but what I see most of the time on both sides is a lot of posturing and insults. About the only person I've ever seen do ths right is Chomsky--he would admit all the flaws of the Democrats and in fact often wrote about them, but he would then say that for the sake of people on the margins he ad t support the lesser of two evils if his vote was in a state where it might matter. No grandstanding, at least when I read him, and more important, he acknowledged the validity of the critiques. <br /><br />Most defenses of the Democrats utterly ignore the criticisms and think they refute them by pointing to cases where there is a serious difference between the Democrats and Republicans, Fine, and that's why I will vote for Clinton if I have to,, but honest people would do more than this. Political hacks won't.<br /><br />Donaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12097924170959207117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4764506766343254616.post-38002682666000930442016-03-07T19:27:47.251-05:002016-03-07T19:27:47.251-05:00Afraid of what happening? If they are Green they ...Afraid of what happening? If they are Green they weren't going to vote for an opportunistic hack like Clinton. I will vote for the opportunistic hacks the lesser of two evils, so I disagree, but there is a chance that if Sanders won he'd bring in voters like this.<br /><br />What I am sick of is the self righteousness of mainstream Democrats. They have convinced me that third party voting does no good so I am a lesser of two evils voter,but I am not going to,pretend that someone as dishonest as Clinton on human rights issues deserves enthusiastic support. You seem to know something about the Israel Palestine issue. What do you think of her pandering to Netanyahu or her support for Israel during the Gaza War? Or her support for the Iraq War, her support for the Libyan intervention and her desire to support "moderate" Syrian rebels? It's not some weird accident that she is friends with Kissinger. Sanders isn't perfect either, but he's not nearly that bad.<br /><br />Here is what I hate about election season--while they last they turn otherwise liberal,people into apologists for the cynical opportunists that seem to rise to the top. Yes, we have a lot of mistaken idealists who think that voting for Stein is going to accomplish something. You seem more angry at them than at a system which gives us Kissinger's best bud as our progressive champion.<br /><br />Donaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12097924170959207117noreply@blogger.com